Opinion: "President Chávez in an exclusive interview "

By: José Vicente Rangel

Journalist José Vicente Rangel I’m at the Military Academy of Venezuela, and I am going to talk to the Constitutional President of the Bolivarian Republic, Hugo Chávez. Hugo, How are you?

President Chávez How are you? How are you doing old friend? What’s up?

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Delighted to have you here, in this beautiful place.

President Chávez Likewise, in this stage, this temple; for me all this is a temple, as you know.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel This is where it all began.

President Chávez Yes, it all began as I said, about twenty years ago, when you asked, everything began; although it had already started.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Isn’t the Academy an obsession for you?

President Chávez I don’t think it is an obsession, you know that in a few hours it will be 40 years exactly since my entry to this yard, to this school. I think it is a state of consciousness

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What does the Military Academy represent in your imaginary?

President Chávez Not that. A state of consciousness that emerged from a very vivid inner world. Very intense these 40 years. 40 years! That emerged like love, like consciousness —José Vicente— that I was born here, that I was born here, this is the alma mater, but it is more than the alma mater, mater alma, the corpus mater, the mater soldier, the mater Chávez. Here Chávez was born.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What was the most difficult thing when you entered this military world?

President Chávez I remember the yard, 40 years, August 8 was a Sunday. I was assigned to a platoon of candidates. What was most difficult, well, first the usual in a 17 year old boy, the nostalgia for Barinas, my mother, my grandmother, my father; I was always a family person: my girlfriend, the baseball game in the corner, the ball team, friends, nostalgia; that is difficult, of course.

Besides that, from the point of view of my daily routine, the fact that I am left handed. See (laughs) being left handed...

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Why?

President Chávez Being left handed here was sometimes a torture. Of course, I defended and still defend my left handedness, so to speak. For example, in the first days I walked through that hallway bringing my laundry, and since I am left handed, some brigadiers passed and I saluted with my left hand… well, I had to jog like a hundred laps around the yard with the clothes over my head, just for being left handed.

Another time in the dining room, during those first days, I ate my soup with the left hand. “No, newcomer, you are crazy, you eat with your right hand...” But my right hand was not as steady as my left, and zas! I soiled my white shirt with soup. “Newcomer!” And they sent me to wash my shirt in the yard. Look, being left handed was something…. But I overcame it.

When I shot at the shooting range it was the opposite. However, beyond these anecdotes I can tell you that almost from the first day I felt like a fish in water, like I was born for this, honestly.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Did you think that it was your destiny to enter this place? Did you associate it to the issue of power?

President Chávez I didn’t associate it consciously when I entered, and here we go back again to Nietzsche and Heidegger.

Heidegger, Nietzsche and also Kant say, you are a philosopher, and I philosophize a lot. I believe that the state of consciousness emerged from the inner world, by reflecting, right? After a chain of causes, they emerge and become conscious; then they become a reality, and acquire a perspective in the past.

Let me explain. When I entered, I wanted to play baseball for the “Magallanes” team, I entered so I could come to Caracas and play baseball with “Magallanes”, I wanted to be “Whip” Chávez.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel You weren’t thinking about a political destiny?

President Chávez No. But four years later I had become a lion, not of the “Caracas” team, I was from the “Magallanes” team… a lion, a small lion, or rather a young lion.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel So here you became conscious of a destiny beyond sports, and beyond daily life, you transcended that.

President Chávez A destiny in power, I had the will to live, the will to have power. Shall I read something to you?

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Of course.

President Chávez About the cadet I was, who wrote in the last dorm in 1974. I met you here. You didn’t know me, I was just another brigadier.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Well, look at how history works.

President Chávez But you don’t remember brigadier Chávez, I’m sure you don’t remember brigadier Chávez.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel No, no.

President Chávez But how could I forget candidate José Vicente Rangel in the theater with Anita and “Pepe”, who was my cadet, from my platoon.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel But look how destinies cross each other, right? You are in power, and I am far away from power [laughs].

President Chávez No, you are also in power, [laughs] in the fourth and fifth power.

Allow me a few minutes, because this is the diary of a cadet...

Journalist José Vicente Rangel By the way, are you writing?

President Chávez I am writing. These days?

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Yes.

President Chávez Yes, I have always written, ever since I was a child.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Are you thinking about your memoirs?

President Chávez [laughs] No, what memoirs! Well, recovering memories, these are memoirs, to re-launch the new Chávez. Here, a new Chávez is emerging, from this situation I am going through.

But, I am going to read this, because I have a surprise for you, for Anita and for “Pepe”, who is also around.

1974, March 13. The day before had been Flag Day and Carlos Andrés Pérez, took power, defeating you, a candidate against Pérez.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel A glorious defeat.

President Chávez Glorious. Of course, glorious. I would have voted for you, I was already a socialist.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel You campaigned some times in those days, surreptitiously.

President Chávez Yes, several times, in Barinas, in Cumaná. But I met you as a presidential candidate, when you came —you and Anita— to visit “Pepe”, who was in my platoon, in ‘73, ‘74.

I wrote the following, briefly:

“Caracas, March 13, 1974. After waiting a long time, the new President arrived —we were going to parade for him, Carlos Andrés— when I see him, I would want to have some day the responsibility of a whole homeland, the Homeland of the great Bolívar —I was already Bolivarian— and also mine...”. I was already been taken by the will for power: Nietzsche (dixit), the will to live —according to Nietzsche, Heidegger, as I said— the man doesn’t have the will for power… because in essence it is the will for different powers: the power to live, the power to walk as a child. The will to be able. Now, what I felt was already political power, it was something else.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel You wanted… you wanted power?

President Chávez No, it is not that I wanted it; rather, the power was assaulting me, without my noticing it. One doesn’t have a plan to assume power, it is the will to live; it is rather the will… José Vicente, I had the will. The will is like a breeding ground, so power or the will for power is like the sprouting of the breeding ground. I was unconsciously sprouting, I was not aware, my awareness had not grasped that, but it was there.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Did you feel that in other cadets?

President Chávez No, not at that time, but I felt it in other things that came from the outside world; In you, a presidential candidate. I repeat, in you, in Allende who was overthrown and murdered a few months before, and that enraged me.

In the Panamanian cadets who talked about Torrijos, and he was President. In Juan Velazco Alvarado, and the Inca Plan. I was a restless youth who read, and Venezuela was starting to stink.

I have to finish reading this, because there is a surprise: the same day I wrote that Carlos Andrés took power, look what I wrote in the next paragraph.

“In the afternoon, we had leave, even for the sportsmen. I didn’t leave. I spoke with José Vicente Rangel junior for a long time. It hurt me that he was discharged. I tried to help him, he was hope ...” You may ask, hope for what, from a brigadier, a newcomer; a new, first year cadet who was discharged, your son. And you, a leader for socialism, for the left, a hope for the nation.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel He has always accompanied you.

President Chávez No doubt, no doubt.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Although his is not in the Armed Forces.

President Chávez So, the question you were asking about power. No doubt that since then I had already been stung by the will for power, and now it is at its highest point, that will is enormous. But, power for what? that is another question. Power for what? To liberate a country. Power for a people. Power for a homeland.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Let’s take a break.

You are a man of action, you have proven that, but like any human being, you may have had moments of doubt. What to do in some circumstances? There are emblematic dates, or emblematic situations in your trajectory:

1. February the 4th.

2. The decision to participate in the elections of 1998, which takes you to the Presidency of the Republic.

3. April 11th 2002.

When we return from the break, we will talk about the doubts of Chávez, and how Chávez solved them.

President Chávez Correct.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Doubt is a rational act in human beings; moreover, many think that a human being that has no doubts is suspicious.

President Chávez Like mistakes also.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Yes. Now, before the pause I mentioned three moments in your life where you probably had some doubts. For example, February 4th.

President Chávez A million doubts, but I am not exaggerating, I say a million and it may be a million and a half.

Truly, February 4th, José Vicente, was a quixotic idea, an ocean of individual and collective doubts. As I was crossing the valley of Aragua, of Maracay, towards La Victoria in an old army jeep with my boys and the battalion, I said: “Dear God, I don’t know what will happen tonight, but we are free”. I am now remembering the great Brecht; he talks about doubt and says somewhere: “doubt is part of human understanding, of human nature”. Now, from doubt, says Brecht, hope must emerge on wings. That’s how we were coming on February 4th, on wings. A million doubts.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel People float around in doubt, but there comes a moment when they have to make a decision.

President Chávez Of course, what is important is that doubt, or a million doubts don’t paralyze you; if you are aware of the need to make a decision, hoping that the path and the unfolding of events will clear up those doubts, and open the horizon to fly; that is what happened on February 4th.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel You were fully convinced that this revolutionary act was pertinent.

President Chávez On February 4th? Yes, absolutely. And I think that it had been absolutely necessary for many years, and that is why we worked tirelessly. And I think that history has confirmed it, and I hope that it confirms it in a definite manner. February 4th was necessary, and also an unavoidable fact; even to stop the coup from the right that was being planned, from some levels of the extreme civil and military right. This is another issue, but doubts, a million doubts: February the 4th. But look how it emerged on wings; in 2012 we will commemorate twenty years of that event that split into two, like a thunderbolt filled with doubts, a quixotic act. I remember my boys, the heroic youth that opened up a path, and this was born here on February 4th; it was born in many parts, but this is the central cradle. Without this school, without those youths, whom I imagine jogging, walking, singing, and I with them, that would have never occurred.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Some say that February 4th is comparable to October 18th, 1945.

President Chávez I don’t know who says that.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Well, those who say that October 18th also divided history.

President Chávez I don’t think that October 18th divided any history, right? February 4th is proving that it did split history into two; I would even say, José Vicente that the 21st century in Venezuela came earlier, and not necessarily that day, but rather in that historical time: The “Caracazo” three years before. The “Caracazo”, February the 4th, November 27th, and this led us to the second event you mentioned, regarding the doubts. That is, December ‘98.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Let’s talk about that, the elections of ‘98. Many people from the left were against your participation; you were questioned even in some sectors, because you were participating in that electoral process. That probably caused some doubts in you, whether it was right or not to participate in that electoral process. Facts indicate that you were right, but before achieving victory, there were certainly doubts. Is that the path or not?

President Chávez Facts have proven us right up to today, this beautiful day when we are talking here. But history has not ended. Let me explain. Deep down, and I think you too, in those meetings were we were analyzing with a group of peers, and also many people, we had no doubts about winning the elections; there were no doubts, I didn’t have any doubt. Particularly when the events of ’98 unfolded, Irene falls down, the other one falls down, even the caudillo, remember? And all that mess.

Now, there was no doubt about victory; a terrible doubt that we had, a huge doubt was whether they would concede defeat. There was talk about a coup, remember?, that Army Chief that said openly, he was the son in law of the President, that they would not recognise a madman as a Head of State, as Commander in Chief… and there was troop movement; Fuerte Tiuna was filled with special units. But once again, a force emerged from here, and I am referring to the Academy School, and the Army and other forces… that contained the coup (counter-coup). You know a lot about that, you have many tales and stories.

The doubt was not there, but what you mentioned: Is this the way to make a revolution? Because as a candidate, you will remember, I hailed a democratic revolution to the four corners of the world. I had doubts: Is this the way to make a revolution? And Allende, and a hundred more examples. February 4th or December 6th were doors to open the way to a revolution. Doubts, great doubts have cleared up and solved, but deep down, even today, there are still some core doubts.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel April 11th, 2002.

President Chávez That day it seems that both doubts joined: those of February 4th. That is, is the Revolution a path with arms? Are the arms the way to make a Revolution? Or is it through a peaceful democratic way? I even thought, during those hours when we shared anxieties, and terrible doubts; I even thought, particularly when I was imprisoned here in Fuerte Tiuna, or there in Turiamo… I said: “Well, then the path was not the elections, the path is to take the arms again...” And I will have to do it again, when I revived, making plans about what to do next. First, save my life, then what to do.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Don’t you think that the counter-revolution proved that it is capable to resort to a coup, to force, when there is the chance to do it? As it happened that day.

President Chávez Yes, no doubt. I believe that this is the historical behavior of the extreme right, or the counter-revolution, throughout 200 years or more. That is a behavior... If we could say something about a constant behavior of the Venezuelan right wing, of the Venezuelan counter-revolution, of the Venezuelan bourgeoisie, and its political expressions, is its anti-democratic coup monger character. They overthrew Gallegos, Isaías Medina, killed Delgado Chalbaud, overthrew Cipriano Castro, and brought the marines and placed Gómez as the lapdog; that was the bourgeoisie, the oligarchy, the extreme right, subordinated to the North American Empire; it is a constant in history.

What happened April 11th was just another demonstration of this, and they continue today with this plan under their shirt, you know that very well. I have seen that you always warn about that, we must not forget that, not even one day.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel A break, right? You took from the Government, from Miraflores, the path of socialism, but you didn’t say during your electoral campaign that it would be a socialist government. I want to talk about this when we come back.

President Chávez You had proposed it 30 years before [laughs].

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Hugo, Socialism as a political proposal in those electoral campaigns of the Fourth Republic, particularly the last one where you triumphed, only had about 6 percent support, as socialism, right?, as a proposal for socialism. You had not defined yourself as a socialist. When you define the socialist character of the government, you do so as a function of a policy of power, to give way to the revolutionary process?

President Chávez Look, of course —allow me again to go back almost 40 years— when you were the candidate of socialism, I believe I was already a socialist. And I already said so, if I had voted then, rest assured that I would have voted for you. Then your thoughts evolve. Now, one thing is that inside, deep inside, you have that impulse; I have even said that in my opinion, Bolívar was a socialist, but how could he proclaim socialism, if the word wasn’t even used, the category. Simón Rodríguez was a great socialist, and I have been so since my early youth.

Now comes the man and his circumstances: Chávez presidential candidate, 1998;the objective and subjective conditions as Karl Marx (dixit) said were not there for a socialist thought and of course it is not a voluntary-individualist decision, a party: the ”V República” movement, and a government program, and an Alliance, and a proposal, but you must remember that I proposed everywhere the Revolution, a democratic Revolution.

Now, we won the elections, we assumed the presidency, the honey moon, the lack of definitions. You remember well, you were my foreign affairs minister, and discussions and discussions; then came the Constituent Assembly, the Change of the Constitution, to open, to break and to open, and then the imperial aggression, and then the bourgeois aggression, I realized that it was impossible to agree with this capitalist bourgeoisie, with these imperialist governments, and then the coup, and that was for us and for me a decisive element.

We must remember that in February there was the “guarimba”, then during a great concentration in “Los Caobos”, in the highway, I declared the anti-imperialist character (here the empire wasn’t even mentioned) of the Bolivarian Revolution, 2004.

Then in Beijing, I remember, at a conference I launched the idea before some intellectuals (Socialism) and in Moscow, at the end of 2004, in Moscow I talked about Socialism. And in Beijing, in more depth, I remember, I even have copies of those speeches somewhere. And then the “Gigantinho”, in Porto Alegre, at the World Social Forum, I practically declared it, look, by approximation: Moscow, Beijing, Brazil, the socialist character of the Bolivarian Revolution, and then the debate started, and it gathered so much strength, there were people warning me: “Not, socialism. Careful!” I said, “No! Socialism, socialism!

Journalist José Vicente Rangel You believe you didn’t deceive anybody.

President Chávez No, I began opening up and saying it. Particularly in the next campaign, in the next campaign, 2006, already candidate Chávez and his socialist program, I said it everywhere and I explained it. And we won with 63 percent of the votes, who am I going to deceive? No one. And I keep summoning this people to socialism. This is the way to dignify human beings, a humane society, a humane homeland.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Socialism isn’t just a word, or a theoretical proposal. Being in power – like you are – is the decision to build a substitute for capitalism and to build a substitute for capitalism is a concrete work of the government. Are you aware of the deficiencies of your government?

President Chávez To build socialism. First we must remember, within that framework, I remember Fidel, in an answer he gave to Ramonet. What is one of your greatest mistakes...”. And Fidel said: “Believing that someone knew how to build socialism”. Here Fidel is much like Mariátegui, “our socialism must not be a replica or a copy, but a heroic creation”. Very “Robinsonian”, Simón Rodríguez: “We cannot copy models, we invent or we err” It is an invention. I would even say a work of art.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel You are accused of copying the Cuban model

President Chávez Whomever accuses me of that is an ignorant, a fake, or a part of the whole dynamics to instill fear, to demonize the Bolivarian Project, which is very different from the Cuban Project, they are two totally different situations.

Now, here we are inventing and erring, and I think that with all the faults in humans, in politics, specifically in politics, in economic decisions, bureaucratic, and all that, inventing a new model inevitably has errors. Now, what is important – and I think that we are doing it – is to acknowledge the mistakes, self-criticism, and create the capacities to go beyond those mistakes and those great faults that we still have, who can doubt that.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Since you are saying that, which I think is very important, in your opinion, very quickly, telegraphically, three successes and three failures or three errors of this process to construct socialism, or the shift from capitalism to socialism.

President Chávez Yes, I could talk about these twelve years of government, which are a shift, different stages in that evolution.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Well, to make a change towards socialism we cannot talk about twelve years, because the first three or four, there were almost no possibilities to move forward.

President Chávez Of course, but these years were necessary years for the shift, without them we wouldn’t have reached the next stage, impossible. What we are saying is very obvious.

Now look, three successes :

First: the proposal to change the Constitution. And look, it doesn’t have to do directly with an opening towards socialism, but without it, we wouldn’t have obtained this wonderful Constitution, which although it doesn’t talk about socialism, it proclaims it; the category of socialism, it isn’t a word – you said – it is a category. A social rule of law and justice cannot be other than a Socialist State, a fair society of equals, as it is mentioned here a hundred times, it cannot be something other than a socialist society.

A great thing: The proposal to change the constitution.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel A new model of democracy.

President Chávez Of a true and profound democracy, of economy, of spiritual values. What we must nurture is the spiritual base of socialism, the loving base.

Second good thing. Let us remember, the Colina Plan. You must remember the Colina Plan. I was tired from dealing those first years with the old leadership of Pdvsa and its lies, its comings and goings. One day, in the early morning I said to Alí Rodríguez, I don’t know if you were there...

Journalist José Vicente Rangel And a State within the State, right?

President Chávez Yes, a State within the State. And a problem for everything; and we didn’t have the resources, they took them away, etc.

So one early morning I said: “Whatever it costs, we are going to conquer that hill (translators note: hill = colina in Spanish)...”. Colina in the figurative sense of that hill, thinking in military terms, right. Then Alí said: “¿What hill?”. Pdvsa, let’s take it, at whatever the cost. And we worked until dawn making the Colina Plan. A strategic victory: The Constitution, the Colina Plan, which then led to the coup, inevitably.

Another good thing: Socialism. Declare socialism and start opening the path is a great move; it would have been a great mistake to try to construct a new Venezuela within the framework of capitalism, it would have been like digging the grave of the Project and of the process, and it would be so today, and tomorrow.

I say they are three great strategic moves.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Would the Project be buried if it hadn’t been like that?

President Chávez There’s no doubt. Imagine that I would have sided with the Venezuelan right, with the capitalist bourgeoisie, I would have been dead politically, and I don’t know where the country would be at. Great moves, strategic, no doubt.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Mistakes?

President Chávez “La Viñeta”, you remember that, you were present those nights and early mornings; that plan we made, plan something or other, the “Viñeta Plan”, that had several components, and one of them – a great mistake that I made, my God, and will never make again, to leave the higher military levels intact, which was there, almost intact.

Look, when Evo Morales arrived to the Presidency he fired I don’t know how many promotions; I respected seniority, of course I talked to the majority, you remember, and see how they turned against us.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel It could have even cost you your life.

President Chávez Of course! My life and the process; then came the cleansing, in a positive sense, and now we have this High Command of ours, committed to the Constitution and to the Revolution, and the Armed Forces are with whatever the people says.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Another mistake?

President Chávez Another mistake: The Colina Plan was a good move. Mistake? [laughs] To maintain a very orthodox economic policy also during those first years; it led me to the International Monetary Fund, I was there trying to reach an agreement; those were big mistakes, but natural, I think, that belong to a transition stage, José Vicente, and then the mistakes started teaching again, Nietzsche. “Error, says Nietzsche, is a truth (this seems a contradiction, he says it is a truth) without which no living species can survive.” Look at this statement from the great Friedrich Niezstche.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Third?

President Chávez Didn’t I tell you already?

Journalist José Vicente Rangel No, that was the second one. There’s one missing.

President Chávez Mistakes? [laughs]. Many. Allow me to group together a set of political, economic, social mistakes, only one mistake, a lack of efficiency in routine matters, in daily matters, that is a great mistake that has many times put at risk government policies, social policies, economic policies, the attention to the problems of the people; in this we must always improve things, raising efficiency and creating greater capacities.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Hugo, you are waging the destiny of the revolutionary process in the elections. Are you aware of this risk?

President Chávez Look José Vicente, I wouldn’t state it that way; you are talking about the elections of 2012.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Twenty Twelve, Yes.

President Chávez By the way, this morning I talked to Prime Minister Putin, a great friend, and we were looking towards 2012; there are elections in Washington in 2012, also in Moscow, and also in Caracas; we were talking, he is a great friend.

Well, look, it isn’t that me and us, because it is no longer me, said Gaitán, that are betting for the Bolivarian revolution, and everything we have achieved, in an electoral process, this electoral process that is a constitutional mandate, the mandate of the people will happen, and there, that will be an event where the destiny of the revolution will be at stake; but it isn’t there, that is not the determining factor. If you ask me, I wage the destiny of the revolution in the popular organization and mobilization, in the unity of the people, in the Revolutionary Force, in the Civic-Military Unit, in the awareness of where we are going to, in the ideology. The elections will be one more event, but I don’t think that it will determine the fate of the Bolivarian Revolution.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel In the event that you lose.

President Chávez No, we won’t lose, we won’t lose; we are going to win. Now, if you put it that way, I can tell you that my personal attitude in events where we have not been favored by victory in some elections is already part of history; however, I am absolutely certain that we will live, that I will go through that successfully, that I will be the candidate, that they will go in their bags full of scorpions, probably to take out a scorpion, and we will defeat them when the Electoral Council fixes the presidential election of 2012. We cannot accept the smallest possibility of defeat.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel And are you clear that you must win with a wide margin?

President Chávez Why? If the difference is one vote, I win for one vote.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Because there is a latent accusation that will increase, of a possible fraud...

President Chávez I have no doubts.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel If it isn’t a smashing result, I think that the result will not be accepted.

President Chávez Even when we won with 60 percent they said that there had been fraud; imagine that we won like brother Ollanta who I believe won by 5, 8 points, and in many parts of the world, the differences are less than 10 points.

Look, in the last few days, a lid was open, a nest of serpents of the opposition leaders, but desperate; they were pulling knives at each other; I looked at them not too long ago, and said: even more so we must prepare for the scenario they call Plan B, that the Yankee embassy, the Yankee empire, the CIA is preparing.

Before this disaster that they have, before what I call the organic structural impossibility of defeating us in the electoral arena, and also in others, but they are going to try, first, and here you are right: if we win by a small margin, but they will also do it, even if we win again with 65%, if we reach 10 or 12 million votes, which is where we are heading; but most of all, if the difference is very small, they will have a plan of violence, and I already imagine CNN, and the large worldwide chains, the right wing governments of Europe, the UN Security Council… well, we have great allies there, fortunately; however, it is an international plan, they are going to say, I already imagine them: “Tyrant Chávez holds on to power, he doesn’t want to relinquish it”. They will try to create violence, destabilization, and intervention; that is their plan, but we have already started with that plan, we are forewarned; that plan is already been neutralized, and if they intend to implement it, it will be worse for them; I would not be the Chávez that was with the Crucifix, on April 14th, but I warn them, it will be another opportunity to continue deepening the Bolivarian Revolution on the way to socialism, let no one have any doubts about that.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel This non-democratic character of the opposition, or of important sectors of the opposition, has it led you to treat them as you have, of not reaching, not looking for an interlocutor in it?

President Chávez I have looked for it, you know that.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Because there are democratic sectors...

President Chávez Ah, sorry!

Journalist José Vicente Rangel No. There are democratic sectors that would see as positive to build a bridge to dialog, to be interlocutors.

President Chávez You are a witness, how is it called?

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Expert witness.

President Chávez Expert witness of so many things, of so many attempts, even before reaching Miraflores; then Miraflores; then you, minister of defense, up there in the hill; then Vice President, and then head of that dialog group.

Do you remember that night, with the “Tiger”, Eduardo Fernández, after that long talk, and other personalities of the opposition? I said to the “Tiger”, to Dr. Fernández, you were next to me and I said: Fernández, give me five. I am so glad that for the first time I have the feeling of having talked, of debating with a serious man from the opposition. I remember that I even told him, why don’t you say on TV what you said here? Do you remember what he said? Something like they would liquidate me, the extreme, angry right, poisoned.

I think that that extreme right, not me, they are going to blame me about that too; it is the extreme fascist right that manages the extreme communication media, and they blackmail, buy and have even fake dollars, etc. They have prevented the emergence of a democratic opposition, not me. I would like to have it, the country needs it; I hope that it emerges, and I am willing to continue until I can; but what else can I do? Building bridges, listening, analyzing to facilitate the emergence of a true democratic opposition; of course, it will never rule this country again; they will rule in local spaces, governor’s offices, mayoralties, congressmen, etc.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Your latest comments about the color red, about the term socialism, these messages to the middle class, do they represent a change in substance trying to find an opening, or is it just a change due to the circumstances?

President Chávez No, I think it is part of what I have felt and commented once in a while, the return of myself. Nietzsche again, and the reflections due to this situation life has forced me to go through, and to reflect and think a lot. I have always been like that, José Vicente.

I am an adversary of the single thought, an adversary of mono-chromism, I wanted to be a painter, I love color, I love debate, I love differences of opinion, you have witnessed that also, how many interviews recorded, how many efforts.

When I send a message to the middle class, to the entrepreneurs of the country, to those that produce, that work, to the workers, to the people… not too long I said that the people must criticize its government, but it must accompany its government.

When I put on a yellow shirt for my birthday, and dance a soft “joropo” with my granddaughter Gaby, Gaby dances well, María dances well the “joropo”… we are practicing for the 15 years of Rosinés next year… the “joropo”, and Gaby’s the year after; I am like that, old man, and sorry for telling you old man.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel No, don’t worry.

President Chávez I am like that, that is my essence. I hope I am understood. When I do that, they start, you know, with: “no, in a lamb’s coat, no, no, he is deceiving us, is an electoral maneuver…. No, I am like that, and I call on the country to be diverse, not dogmatic, and that we can live together here with our differences, and beyond in the world.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Look, a break to go to the last segment.

President Chávez But I tell you something else in one minute. I also think, and this is directed particularly to those that follow me, but to the country that will see this, and is seeing this, sorry, is seeing this program, which is like the tenth one we do. For us to continue building what Gramsci called the new hegemony; this calling, these messages are a political necessity, a historical necessity.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Lets go to a break and then finish in the next segment. There is a question that I must ask you for obvious reasons, right

President Chávez My new look, you haven’t asked anything about that, I am amazed [laughs].

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What have they told you about your new look?

President Chávez Well, some say that I am good looking [laughs] María, for example my daughter over there… that I am good looking. It is much cooler, look, it goes better, you don’t have to comb, that curly hair that I had.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What did you feel when they told you you had cancer? A break and we will return with that.

Hugo did you ever imagine that fate would put an ambush like that, a disease like cancer?

President Chávez Not really, you know that I think that this doesn’t happen to most people, right? It is common place to say, well, that we think about our loved ones, but never that we are going to be surprised in an ambush like that, even less so, with something so significant for life, because you know that cancer is associated to the end of life, it is a thing in the imaginary, in the collective and individual as well, the imaginary, I never thought about that.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Didn’t you have any symptoms?

President Chávez I had some pains that were increasing, then the knee helped, the injury in my knee, because the pains were in the pelvic area, since the end of last year; now some tests, and there was some nerve damage, in a muscle, the iliac, so that was that, and the knee later. You remember the floods in December, in January I left and was in pain, and no one knows, only a very small team, that they sometimes paralyzed me. Once, Elías and I were walking and I told him to stop, because I was paralyzed, and my leg was shaking, and Elias got scared and they had to take me away and lay me down, etc… an injection, and then your commitment is longer, it started this year, and you devote yourself soul and body, and fundamental mistakes.

And then July 5th, I said to someone one night, Listen, what I have: couldn’t it be something more serious, could it be cancer? But I would say: No, I have to reach July 5th and then do whatever you want with me, the Bicentennial, the Summit that cost so much, all these years and everything was prepared for the Latin America Unity Summit, until I arrived in Cuba with increasing pain, and severe organic difficulties. Fidel told me, what do you want, to die? What is that you not wanting to have some thorough tests done? And Fidel convinced me.

I even said to him, Fidel, the Summit, and he said: “I support you politically for the Summit, but the life of a revolutionary comes first, Chávez...” and that night, Raúl [laughs] took me to the hospital; and I went to the hospital and I had some clinical tests done, the physicians, but I didn’t stay, I went home, to the place we were staying at, and at 8 in the morning, Raúl knocked on my door and said, come, they are waiting for you. And well, the test appeared with the equipment (sic), which later became a malignant tumor that was removed a week later, after a very careful approach; but I… it was Fidel who said I told you so.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel When he told you, what did you feel? How was that impact?

President Chávez You know that the first surgery, I have said it, and will summarize for the sake of time, there were some suspicions, but they had to check very carefully, because that device the size of a baseball, and also round, like hand-made, nature.

Then the surgery; It was a difficult surgery to drain the abscess, with a risk of infection, and then a week in recovery. I was ready to return, and Fidel went to visit me every day. That afternoon he came and seemed mysterious, and my daughter says: Fidel is mysterious. María and Rosa because he came, then went back, I looked at him and finally he came with that face, with his wife, my daughters… they didn’t know anything yet, they stayed outside, and when I saw his face I said: Fidel is going to tell me something serious, I know him so well. And he starts saying: Chávez malignant cells. I looked at him, I don’t know what I felt, like a crossed bunch of feelings; but immediately I took it on; you have seen me in hard and difficult situations, even near death situations or similar.

We talked for a while, he called the physicians, and asked them to explain me what they had done for hours, the day before. He had them explain to him until 2 in the morning, the different scenarios; they explained even the smallest detail. Adán, my brother, was there. Nicolás said, Do you want any other comrade? Of course Nicolás, Adán, María, Rosa and then, well, I said, I was just coming out of that surgery. I said, Fidel, I only ask for one thing, from you all: I accept this; give me until tomorrow, not to think whether I would have the surgery or not, No, I said, come on, give me a free day, just for me. And they left me, my daughters left me, and I went to the bathroom to see my eyes, and I cried, and I cried, like I cried on April 12th, also in front of a mirror, there in Turiamo. I cried and cried, like in the song, I cried and cried; and why me? I asked. Well, in the end, after a while I was still alone, and looking at myself and laughing, saying: Well, Chávez, now cancer, huh? And then the guy from the plains emerged, the Venezuelan, the fighter, the corpus soldier, the soldier and fighter, and I looked into my eyes and said: And what is that for me? Like on April 11th What is that for me? And I ended up accepting it; Adan came and I hugged him, and I called the girls: well then let us take this on. Nicolás go talk to Elías. The surgery goes, and all its risks. Let us take this on, and go over the hill. And soon I was asking for Zarathustra Zarathustra returned, thus spake Zarathustra. I felt the need to re-encounter this character with whom I had had an encounter in Yare twenty years ago, and here I am again; so what? What is that for me? What is that for us? [laughs] Now cancer, what else?

Journalist José Vicente Rangel I saw you on the 11th at night, that terrible night.

President Chávez And I saw you.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel And I saw how you made that decision, the most daring one, inconceivable: to go to the cave of traitors; I think that was decisive. It is necessary to have a lot of courage to do that. It was easier to sacrifice yourself. And then the comparison of reactions in those episodes, that episode when the commanders of the different components arrived and said: “They took our command, the coup is moving forward...”, and when they inform you that you have cancer, I think they are similar, right?

President Chávez Deep down, yes.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Because there is a human backdrop that identifies them.

President Chávez An ambush, then; I was suddenly against a wall.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel But look, why don’t we take advantage of remembering the treason of the 11th, for you to give us an idea about stability right now. There has been a lot of slander against the Bolivarian Armed Forces, and that is a determining factor in this process that consecrates the unity between the people and the Armed Forces, which is fundamental in this process. Very quickly.

President Chávez A brief comment comparing this with April 11th what was the date? It was June when Fidel announced that I had cancer, I have to find the exact date, like the 18th, the second surgery was June 20th. So it was on the 18th of June that Fidel gives me the news.

Fidel appears again on April 11th you were next to me, and I don’t know how Fidel got through, and then María talked with him; but it was next day that Fidel could enter, despite the fact that they were waging an electronic war, etc. They blocked the calls, and he came through, and after a short comment “you are not Allende, you are a soldier, you don’t die today Chávez”. There he told me almost the same thing: “Chávez, until not too long ago, almost everybody died of cancer, of leukemia; not today” so he was basically saying: you won’t die this time, Chávez. See? The same thing. And how many years later? Almost ten years later.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel And your Armed Forces?

President Chávez Now, allow me, another common factor between these two events is that in the end I decided and gave in. You were talking about fate, I don’t believe in predestination, but I do believe in fate, in a path, in a river. In the end, on April 11th I gave in, and here I am, after doubts, and there I also put myself in the hands of science, but I give in with the will to live, and the will to keep on putting my modest efforts to make a homeland.

Stability. A good topic, because there are the events, the speculations; It was said that I returned suddenly on July 4th because the coup was already on the way, that Elías was moving, that the minister of defense had another movement, etc. The division in the Armed Forces…. We have obtained a stability through hard work, a stability that I think is solid, but careful, a stability that is ensured, but is not the same to say ensured and to say guaranteed forever; no our stability is threatened, there is an empire over there.

José Vicente I was in Tripoli in November with Gadhafi and we went through some streets in Damascus, with President Bashar driving, his wife, and we went through towns; a peaceful country, and look what is unfortunately happening: an imperial plan; so we have to be very careful these months, these years, and particularly next year. We have already talked about that, and thus the strength of the Armed Forces, that is why I believe so much in my Generals, in my military cadres, in the people, in the political and economic stability that we must keep on strengthening and guarantee to avoid any ambush.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Your Proust questionnaire was answered by a great French novelist.

President Chávez A novelist did it, designed that type of...

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Someone designed, and he was the first to respond that questionnaire.

President Chávez Like a machine gun, right? [laughs] you have given it quite often.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel And it is good to establish the human profile of an individual, of the interviewee; I have given to states men, to artists, etc.

President Chávez Shoot… and it has to be quickly.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Some questions, yes… main character trait.

President Chávez Main trait? Quick response; and I respond quickly, a quick character.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Defects that you cannot control?

President Chávez That I couldn’t… now I have to control all defects, particularly impulsivity, and I am making efforts to dominate it… impulsivity.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Do you consider yourself a good person?

President Chávez Nietzsche says that a person who says that he is a good person is suspicious; I prefer you to judge whether I am good, if I am worth something.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Who would you switch places with?
President Chávez With Chávez.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What is your price?

President Chávez I cannot be bought or sold, I don’t have a price.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Who do you envy?

President Chávez You… almost 90 years old, and look how you are, impeccable, and with so much clarity.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What is your ideal about happiness?

President Chávez My ideal of happiness? The Bolivarian one: the supreme happiness for the people.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What human error are you indulgent with?

President Chávez I think that with the humanity of error, the human character of error, for example innocence, good faith, you must be indulgent with that.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What don’t you tolerate?

President Chávez Laziness, lies, negligence.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What awakens your rage?

President Chávez My rage? Up to a few weeks ago, even the small things, Today, nothing

Journalist José Vicente Rangel For what would you be capable of killing?

President Chávez I don’t kill, I live, I don’t kill; I am not capable of killing.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What trait do you prefer in human beings?

President Chávez Loyalty, loyalty, loyalty.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What is your favorite word?

President Chávez Favorite word? Live by living life.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Any work of art that cannot be surpassed?

President Chávez “Les Miserables”.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What is your slogan at work?

President Chávez Work, work and more work, the slogan of Bolívar.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What do you think is your contribution, professionally?

President Chávez Professionally I believe that the capacity to invent… to invent.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel What work of art has impressed you?

President Chávez Many; but look the one in the Carabobo Elliptical Hall. When I went to Congress, the first time I was there, Martín Tovar y Tovar, Yes a monumental work of art, and how many years did this man spend painting that.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Do you know any perfect design?

President Chávez Nature is perfect, from that oak and that saman, even an ant is a perfect design.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Where would you like to live?

President Chávez In the Apure coast, because you know that the Apure river divides Barinas from Apure, in the Apure coast.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Favorite music?

President Chávez ¡Ahhh! Music from the plains: “sobre la estela del viento....”

Journalist José Vicente Rangel A color?

President Chávez Red, despite the yellow shirt [laughs]

Journalist José Vicente Rangel A poet?

President Chávez Andrés Eloy; some call it Maisanta, and others the American!

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Something beautiful?

President Chávez Women; María. Women are beautiful.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel A hero?

President Chávez Bolívar. Maisanta. Bolívar.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Pending subject?

President Chávez Pending job... I have many pending subjects, many, and I’m going to tell you one with a date, mathematic: 2031. Draw your own conclusion.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Do you believe in the eternity of the soul?

President Chávez I believe that the soul is something of the subject, and the subject is not eternal; I believe more in the infinite human character, but not in the individual eternity of the subject.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel How would you like to die?

President Chávez I wouldn’t like to die, to live, to live by living.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel The present condition of your spirit?

President Chávez Invincible, in full return, a return after 40 years, the cadet returned dressed in blue, with the youths in blue, the lieutenant that was here the captain, the “bachaquito” from Sabaneta, “The arañero”, 40, 57 years that have returned to re-launch the new Chávez.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel A final message in the present circumstances you are going through...

President Chávez Why final... There is no final... ¡Ah! You mean today?

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Yes. With the laconism, the impact of “for now”

President Chávez Well, that will be very difficult, remember the circumstances. At that time, you know how I was; here we are so relaxed, in this cool afternoon. But messages to close the program? A message for the Venezuelan people: February 4th I...

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Laconic, like the crack of a whip.

President Chávez Yes, February 4th I...

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Like the crack of a whip.

President Chávez The crack of a whip? Maisanta, we are many! Let’s go to 2021 and to 2031.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel By the way ¿did you improvise that “for now”? Did you think about it on the way between the “Cuartel de la Montaña” and Miraflores?

President Chávez No, I didn’t know that I was going to talk to the country; it was just to tell my boys that were scattered all over to surrender; that was creating anxiety in me, and then the occasion occurred, and they wanted me to write; I refused, no, please give me a beret. It was absolutely improvised.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Are you sure?

President Chávez Sure, absolutely improvised. Moreover, after I ended, I go back to the office that you know, it was your office at the Ministry of Defense. I sit down, an officer gives me coffee, and an old conspirator that you know sits next to me, General Santeliz Ruiz, who was there; he was the assistant of the Minister, but he was on our side...

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Yes, in the tight rope.

President Chávez He was in the tight rope, and he was cheering me up, and he helped me a lot that day; he even left in his car with Altuve, so that Carlos Andrés’ order was not fulfilled, that I didn’t leave the “Cuartel de la Montaña” alive. Carlos Andrés Pérez gave that order. They took me out through here, grabbed a military vehicle, and in the General’s car, he himself was driving and brought me here, through the back of the “Círculo Militar” and zas, zas, Santeliz Ruiz whom I will never forget for his courage and bravery.

When I sit, after saying “for now”, after the short and laconic speech, the message, I was beaten, José Vicente, beaten; but today you are asking for a message, and today I’m going up, I am reborn… the moments are so different.

But he says: “¡Good for you kid” It is good that you said...!” And I said, My general ¿Good? Beaten, calling for surrender, eh? Good. And he says: “you have no idea… you said “for now”...” I hadn’t realized that I had said “for now”. Once again is the will that comes from deep inside, what we were talking about, the will for power, the political instinct. I think that when I was a second year cadet, first year cadet, I was already a politician, and then the will for power joins in… I wanted to be a “Navegante del Magallanes” and a lion emerged, a lion [laughs] for politics, a lion for the battle.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Well, thank you very much, and lots of luck.

President Chávez Forty years ago we met here, forty more.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Good Luck.

President Chávez Thank you José Vicente.

Journalist José Vicente Rangel Good luck and good health.

You must feel very light.

President Chávez Yes [laughs] And you?

I don’t want to get up from here.